Actually, it was claimed multiple times it wasn’t in the first build.I can attest to it not being added until about a week or so later because enough people complained about it originally if you scroll far enough because it should’ve been a no brainer for it to be there upon release, I was here from about day 1 and I have a log of it being updated in my following notifications. Even with the warning, it still shocked and confused a lot of people, though I understand your point. Here is some people pointing it out:
im not sure to what i watched my friend stream and i am terriffied of what i have witnessed i would like to say that i heavily dislike this game with all of my passion in my heart for no absloute reason.
GIRL WHAT???? OMG WHAT??? JUMP DUCKING SCARE LIKE OMG HE WAS JUST.. AND THE CAT WAS JUST THERE AND OMG.... I CAN'T- I WON'T GO OFF ON A NOTE LIKE THAT!! I REFUSE!!!! REFUSE I SAY!!!
Hi, I am a lifelong mental healther and I'd rather have a million people with no experience with suicidal ideation make a million shitty/lazy/stupid suicide games than have one person who's been there get scared away from making art about their experiences.
ETA: Now that I have a moment to sift through some past games, I'd also personally recommend The Longest Walk and Winter in June for other short experiences about the same topics (depression/suicide) and Adventures With Anxiety! for anyone struggling with or curious about anxiety disorders. All hit close to home for me.
Take care of yourselves and please make sure you're in a good headspace if you decide to read/play. 🧡
What a horrible thing to say. Mental health as is, especially depression, is already very demonized and misunderstood. People making a million bad games about negative streotypes about depression will only harm, not help and make it significally harder for them to get any sort of help. People who have these ideations and make these games about their own experiences usually do it in a respectful and carthodic way that does not harm anyone and these games barely get enough attention as is, so you pushing this mentality on other people and displaying it proudly on a creators page is actually very gross. You are pushing a very harmful viewpoint and if you cared about other peoples experiences and other fellow "mental healthers" you would not be saying this as it benefits no one but rather pushes them back into regressive and stigmatized corner. Shame on you.
hmmmmmm idk no clue maybe because DDLC did it a lot better and accurately wrote Sayoris issues and struggles to be realistic instead of just shoehorning the suicide in? That’s just me tho 😂😂 you do your own thing bro! Have you ever considered that maybe execution is important and doing research on these issues before you write them is a good thing? Learn some critical thinking and understand media literacy and come back to me.
DDLC was the most I've ever been upset by a piece of media as an adult, not because the game has onscreen suicide and self-harm but because after that it goes "they're AIs of shitty moe archetypes and the only reason they're this fucked up is that Monika altered their code to make them less likable, so really who cares". Sayori and Yuri being well-written actually makes this worse, because the twist comes after they were already made relatable. It still baffles me that this game isn't universally detested by the mentally ill.
And yet, that game is meaningful to many people who've experienced serious mental illness. Because people get different things out of art, and are not all offended by the same list of writing decisions. This is a part of critical thinking and media literacy, too.
Good for you that you dislike it, I’m just saying that the difference is one is well written and the other isn’t and that is apart of the reason why people like one and detest the other. That’s also apart of media literacy. I never said you couldn’t like it or that it was an accurate representation of your issues or all our issues as being mentally ill, all I said is that because it had nuance and made the characters likable and throughly explained a lot of plot threads and did a new and interesting story it is way more meaningful and memorable in that way. I’m tired of you guys trying to write this off as art when art has meaning and research and love put into this while this did not. That is the primary difference. Your main points were still bad and this doesn’t prove or deny anything, congratulations for disliking a universally loved game, you are so original and unique.
So I'm not a real crazy person because I have different priorities about art? Very cool of you. Can't wait to tell my psychiatrist that I reliably experience emotions and want to live.
Never said you weren’t. Just said this was a shitty thing to say and if you cared about what people are saying you’d acknowledge that people have different perspectives and points then you do and claiming people don’t understand art because of messy and shitty writing and plot points and treating it like it’s high art is actually just weird. Do not mince my words, I disagree with your point but I never once claimed you weren’t actually mentally ill and trying to throw in the “I like pancakes” “so you must hate waffles” point is petty and unneeded,I never once said anything like that and you saying that shows me you have not entered the conversation with an open mind and civil intentions. If your going to result to undermining my entire point by taking things extremely out of context, I'd rather just not even bother arguing with someone like you.
Hi, you absolutely did say it to them though. You said, verbatim, "You are pushing a very harmful viewpoint and if you cared about other peoples experiences and other fellow "mental healthers" you would not be saying this as it benefits no one but rather pushes them back into regressive and stigmatized corner". (You also implied that the creator of the game, which does suck, by the way, don't get me wrong!, can't possibly be mentally ill because THEY are expressing themselves in a way YOU don't like. I don't like it either and I don't know whether that person is mentally ill, but unlike you, I live in a world where I can acknowledge that it's possibly that another mentally ill person might sometimes make stupid art, because of course that can happen.)
So! Considering that original post was very clearly coming from a perspective of caring about other "mental healthers", as it is very insane to imagine that someone saying they don't want to risk accidentally censoring the art of a person who might have mental health issues would mean it for any other reason, the only reasonable assumption is that you're implying that they don't have those issues at all. Or were you trying to say something that made even less sense and was even less relevant? Either way, you've declared that anyone who doesn't have your exact perspective must not care about other people, while brutally attacking anyone who makes art you dislike. This is ridiculous, fundamentally pro-censorship, and overall it's absolutely disgusting. You were trying to be hurtful and you know you were and the least you could do is not be a coward about it, but of course that won't happen, because you don't have a meaningful stance here, and you live life with such intensive cognitive dissonance that you're able to convince yourself that wanting to CENSOR ART THAT YOU PERSONALLY FELT WASN'T VERY GOOD is actually a very good stance that makes the world better. You've convinced yourself that CENSORING PEOPLE will lead to them being somehow more free to discuss sensitive topics, and that NOT CENSORING PEOPLE will lead to them being somehow less free. A child could tell you how little sense that makes.
You haven't taken responsibility for any of the awful things you said, you claim to be defending media literacy and critical thinking even though everything about your approach does nothing but further damage and disincentivize those things, your various posts about this consist of you pretty much refuse to engage honestly with a single point being by anyone you're talking to, and you still have the gall to act like it's OTHERS who aren't approaching this debate in good faith and can't be reasonably engaged with? Yeah, no. The game being criticized sucks, but there's no question whatsoever that you are the person here who should be ashamed.
Don't worry, though, I won't try to debate you. This post really isn't even for you, because you've already made it abundantly clear that you're a dishonest, vicious, pearl-clutching reactionary who has never once been willing to actually communicate. I'm just putting it here because this whole exchange left me searingly angry and I want there to be a record of someone refusing to swallow your crap.
*the one and only edit actually Forgot about the stupid DDLC take you had in another comment. Not here to debate that with scum like you either, but WOW it sure was gross how you responded by basically saying "lol who cares that the game I liked more actually hurt you, because I liked it" and then deliberately implied that they secretly only disliked the game because it's popular, as if it's literally impossible for someone to have a different experience than yours and anyone who did must be lying. And please don't even bother trying to explain how actually when you said that you meant something else. You meant what you said and you know it. Alright, peace. I hope your life is really, really bad and it only ever gets worse.
??? Why does it say your comment was posted 6 days ago, yet it's near the top?
To the point, people can write whatever they want, however they want. To a not so insigificant number of people, however, this game's use and representation of suicide, alongside the other oddities (namely the review thing), was especially nauseating to experience. I could see if there had only been one or two people in the comments claiming it wasn't written well, but people both suicidal themselves and those who have lost friends/loved ones to suicide have all largely espoused the same concerns and criticisms. Whatever her intentions, the author DID hurt people by not putting more thought, care, and even warnings into the game.
Topics like suicide, especially when the majority of your fanbase is so very obviously young, should absolutely be treated with care and respect. Mental health struggles are stigmatized and misunderstood too much as is to let writers utilize it however their awful plots please. There's not an "incorrect way to be suicidal" but the wrong application in any writing can be both incredibly insulting and upsetting to those who have actually suffered through it as well as furthering people's warped view of what they are going through.
Okay so, I had to literally physically go away and think before I came up with an answer because the leap in logic here is insane.
Yes, actually. There is right and wrong ways to potray mental illness. Shocking, I know. This comment comes off as very tone deaf for someone who seemed to struggle with ideations for a long time. I'm not saying you don't feel that way, I just find it weird that your implying we should let people demonize and streotype stuff we've been trying to get away from for a long time and its actually especially harmful and damaging for you to say that and excuse shitty writing for a game. This is like saying Split is an accurate representation of DID and yes guys! we should let a person with no experience with DID and doesn't have it demonize said illness and actually misconstrude it and use it for shock value, this isn't harmful at ALL to people with DID and letting them get help! you see the issue? Use this with any mental illness and this is actually a very harmful mentality to have. Her behavior only proves this point because all shes done with the suicide and murder endings is laugh at her audience and mock them for being unable to save him. "Better give me 5k reviews or poor, sweet Zilas is gone forever." and use suicide and murder as shock value and a thing to hold over someones head rather then to educate and show how suicide effects people which she fails at miserably. What your failing to realize is that, yes, while this may be entirely possible this happens irl, fiction does not equal reality and fiction is its entirely own thing and implying that it has to represent irl issues you experienced is harmful. Not everyone has the same experience as you and saying this is a realistic potrayal to you boogles my mind.
In conclusion, its actually a lot more harmful to spearhead the idea that mental illness can't be done wrong and let poor writing through the cracks is a very fucking awful thought process as it perpetuates the idea that we shouldn't hold writers accountable for doing poor research and let them get away with continuing to do streotypes we've been trying to get away from for years. While you may not take offense to it, other people do and we can actually differeniate fiction from reality. Not even sure why I'm arguing with a pfpless person on itch tho, you guys never have good points and are probably just Jenny on an alt and will never respond to my counterpoint. Very sad.
I suspect it's the dev just doing damage control at this point, just like removing the ability to downvote. A comment from 7 days ago, and from an account made only a day prior, just shoots to the top of the page. It even already had upvotes with it when it popped up. It's just more transparent manipulation on top of all the rest.
For what it's worth, I agree with your points. Damaging and stereotyped portrayals of mental illness are unfortunately too common in media - horror especially. Really hoped I'd never see it in Otome though...
I fully agree.and thank you, you have backed me up on a lot of points and stuck with me through some of these arguments so make sure to take good care of yourself as well. Very sad Jenny is deciding to go about it in this way, unfortunately.
bro i thought when he proposed to his girlfriend that it was a good ending but i was so wrong... i end up kill--- him instead the way i cried i would had preferred the sui ending😭
Hello so I read the last tweet from Jenny before writing this and since we can’t say what is true i’m writing this review with the softest tone and only talk about the game <3 have a good read !
1) The story in general
In the first place, the story feels rushed, I'm not the best writer but you can tell that we miss a lot of information for exemple starting with how fast the guy gets followers for doing almost nothing (I think maybe make the whole story a week would be better with more action) to the hanging ending . I feel like the whole story is a mix of Needy Girl Overdose ( the fact he wants 1M in a week and he is helped by his partner) and DDLC for its "disturbing" ending. And you know what it's great you take inspiration for your game but the issue is that it’s very similar so the game feel less original. I also feel like the whole game feel like a booktok comment section (probably cause I’m not target audience but I feel like that kind of way to write is gonna age very badly kinda like error 143). Also to finish this first part the relationship between the MC and the guy. The whole time it just feels like the MC controls everything about this little white hair dude it just feels like I'm playing a toxic relationship simulator (talking about the fact that we aren't guiding him for a better streamer career but we are imposing him stuff like "ban her from modding" or even when he have to apologize and the MC literally choose for him and when he say "I don't think it's a great idea" the MC doesn't listen to him and force him). Ofc the mc got some reason to be like this especially with the mod being a creep to him. To my eyes, he has 0 personality. Plus the fact that he is sexualized by everybody in the game is just so sad he kinda deserves better. :(
2)The hanging and homicide ending
So to resume this he decides to kill himself because he got bullied on the internet cause he apparently hates people with cancer (I think it’s a silly reason but someone said it’s about showing cancel culture? I think it was written in not so good way cause I personally feels like the game was making a joke). The whole reason why he did this is very silly and it explains why I think the story is rushed but you know maybe before he was mentally unstable and it was the event that finally broke him. Nope, he killed himself just like that, there is no indication that he is feeling bad, it just happened. The way she just killed him was very disturbing. Suicide is a very serious topic, normally you get signals of those things, this guy is not killing himself like that. It just feels like the ending was here to just shock people and it did, I was shocked because it happened without warning (not talking about trigger), it was so out of place. I don't really get words to describe this scene cause the picture was very graphic kinda like DDLC but when you play it you know what is going to happen here no (now yes if you read the post but it’s kinda hide). Same for the Homicide ending it kinda happened like the hanging ending out of pocket and was very graphic.
After playing for a second time normally you get an interaction with the cat (introduced at the start of the story and then forgotten) he said "yeah I can bring him back if you leave 5,000 rates on itch.io". This whole thing is just crazy to me (about how the story just out of pocket killed the character I know it’s explained by the plot but it was put in a very “awkward” way) the game ask for a good ending if you give good rates... I don’t think it's ok and I feel like the game is using his death and his suicide as a way to get reviews (btw I know he is fictional I’m more talking about the idea of his death I hope my word aren’t confuse)
Ok bye!!XX
go check twitter people are talking about the issue i can't say here
made an account not to rate (i will not), but because I don't want my friends to read. Spoilers ahead obv
---
From my understanding, the biggest reason this game is getting hate, is for its "insensitive depiction of suicide", but tbh, I'm a bit confused because that's not how I saw the ending?
People keeping comparing it to DDLC and Sayori's ending (yes, I see the visual similarities), but they're completely missing the references the game tells you about. "Death Notebook", "Ryuk", "fond of apples". Ryuk is literally shown in the ending CG, so I don't know how else the game can spell it out for you.
For the benefit of those who haven't seen the anime (which I can only assume most of the people who've hated this haven't), in the show, there is a notebook where you can write a person's name and the cause of their death, and within the next 40 seconds, they will die like that. Yes, there are instances where suicide is the cause of death shown. V graphic and depressing, but story wise, makes sense.
We know from the second ending that MC wasn't just in the mood to randomly stab Zilas; that it was a sudden urge. He literally says "it's not your fault, i can explain". If we can safely conclude it was some external forces that compelled MC to, and that Zilas was destined to die one way or another, why have we all collectively just assumed he committed it out of his own volition? And if that's not the case, then there would obviously NOT be any signs to show. Because it was not suicide out of depression.
You cannot tell me how weird or dumb you think it was for Zilas to get cancelled for something he didn't mean, when you're out here doing the same (played one time, missed the hints, and decided it was okay to harass someone for sth you didn't like). I would expect some more empathy from the people who talk about mental health. (this is not a jab at anyone. some comments have been respectful, but some are just awful).
I'd like to clarify that I am not here to defend the devs. I write this (and here's the part I hope my loved ones never know), as someone who has dealt with suicide ideation for the most part of their teen and young adult years. Who still has a stack of letters tucked in the back of my cupboard, because there was one night where I was so sure it was the end. I write this as someone who still cannot trust myself with heights or high places. My mental health is something I must protect, not a random game developer. Why read the content warnings, press okay, and still complain?
The problem most people have with the game is not because of not reading the warnings or whats going to happen (which actually orginally was the case because in the first build, in which most people played, it had not contained any and instead they were hidden on the itch.io page, which is not an adequate place to put content warnings for something as sensitive as this.) but the fact of how poorly written it is and how it was done in a way that was not well researched, well thought out or well done.
Firstly, no it is implied he committed suicide because of the hate comments and harassment he was getting. If it truly didn't bother him in some way, which it seemed to, why on earth would he do it? Was him ghosting the MC and hiding himself away because it hurt and stressed him out also not of his own volition like you seem to be saying? YOU are the one who seemed to miss "hints" right in front of your nose. The thing most of us don't understand is why Jenny decided to go about it this way, if it was truly just Ryuks doing, it was not thought provoking or well done in any way, shape nor form. In fact, we still know nothing about Ryuk, the cat was not in the story besides very brief implications and thats why we are confused. Ryuk feels very out of place in the grand scheme of the story and like the horror aspect was an afterthought. Its very lazy writing in terms of horror, and slapping a "give me 5 thousand reviews to revive him" at the very end and half assly explaining plot and story beats at the very end is HORRIBLE writing. The main point of writing is showing and not telling, which this game fails miserably at, from one writer to another. We see a lot of issues with this because writing needs to be shown adequately so things can be explained and neatly wrap up plot threads, this game needed a lot more revision and time in the oven and should not have been done for a game jam where these topics need a lot of understanding and grace to be done properly. Just because stuff isn't always explained irl doesnt mean that should be an excuse for horrible writing on a game about a complex topic.
Secondly, NOBODY IS HARASSING JENNY!!!!! And if they are, its not any of us. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and just say you are making a lot of this stuff up in your comment. Nobody is attacking or harassing Jenny, we are critcizing her writing because it depicts something very sensitive and something that needs to be thoroughly researched which in this case it wasn't. I actually scrolled and did not find a single comment saying what you seem to be implying, just well rounded critcism from people who struggle with depression or have lost those they love to suicide or murder, which Jenny has not which is why people are offended and hurt by the writing and how insensitive it is to people who suffer from it and most of us went in knowing the content warnings, just expected more nuance. Also, only one person compared it to DDLC, one person and the difference is that Sayori is actually well written and Zilas isn't. Your acting as if a majority of us said these things when we didn't to prove a point, which you aren't. We are allowed to criticize and give our takes on very real world issues and stuff we suffer with on a published product. Part of being a game developer is accepting criticism and recoginizing when YOU release a product or project into the world, people are free to do what they like with it and just because the developer is a smaller one doesn't negate them from any and all criticism, what stupid reasoning. Your failing to realize the difference between harassment and criticism when most, if not all, of us want Jenny to be a better writer and still stand behind her because she has worked on amazing projects and knows how to write good and thoughtful stories, which is why most of us are disappointed in how she went about this and went about addressing it. Jenny isn't an "uwu poor vicitim" getting harassed, maybe read the reviews that seem to be 'harassment' to you and recoginize the game dev and lead writer has done problematic stuff and deserves criticism for her actions instead of writing it off as harassment.
For someone who claims to not be defending the lead writer and producer, you sure seem to be ignorant to a lot of what people are saying and ignoring most of our points for the sake of defending said writer, and making an account just to protect them tooth and nail kinda shows what side your actually on. Good grief.
Comment sections are not just for blanket outpourings of love and support for whatever the dev creates. Creatives can't adequately grow and learn without criticism. Not sure where you're getting harrassment from, but I've not seen it on this page and have read every critical review posted so far (even the ones I've had to google translate).
Also, (ignoring that the content warnings were initially hidden so the author could have their gotcha moment) I sort of mentioned this in a previous comment, but suicide in games rarely bothers me (as someone who has attempted and almost didn't survive, since we're sharing). When written well, it can even be incredibly cathartic. For example,there's an interactive fiction game on steam in which you can choose to have your MC struggle with suicidal thoughts. The difference is that the author of that game either struggled with similar thoughts themselves or actually did research, as everything came across as very realistic and relatable to me. It wasn't pulled out as some ending plot twist, but was included as something the MC grappled with alongside their myriad other struggles. The absolute best part is that it's completely optional. All that to say, suicide in media isn't a problem for me when written about knowledgeably and respectfully.
And a content warning for suicide (when one can actually find it) doesn't excuse the writer from criticism if it is written poorly.
Edit: Deferring to and agree with Miru's critique of the plot.
As a guy who's seen death note, I flipped out, extremely excited when I noticed the death note references. I thought this game would be long and interesting, and end in Ryuk somehow being involved in his death. As someone who got the yandere ending, some part of me wonders if Zilas really did have a deathnote and was using it to make us kil- him. Perhaps that's why he said that 'he can explain'. I believe there's a major connection between this game and death note, and I refuse to believe there's no explanation.
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GENUINELY CRIED WTH!!!
when is the full release and will we finally have a good ending :<
Well that was the single most emotionally devastating game I've ever pkayed (made an account just to comment about it cause OH MY GOD)
PLEASE FREE ZILAS WTF
so no matter what you lose? wtf
People weren't kidding,i had no idea what i was expecting
i wasn't prepared to see that
Noooo!! I really wanted to marry him! T_T
it sucks theres not a happy ending :((( good story tho AAAHHH IM GONNA CRYY
Here to help support!
Great game, great art style, but plz free my boy.
pls let me download it i dont want to restart the whole game just to get another ending and i cant even skip :sob:
guys the very first listed content warning is for suicide..................
I mean, unless it wasn't included in the first version, that would be scummy. But I haven't seen anyone claim that
Actually, it was claimed multiple times it wasn’t in the first build.I can attest to it not being added until about a week or so later because enough people complained about it originally if you scroll far enough because it should’ve been a no brainer for it to be there upon release, I was here from about day 1 and I have a log of it being updated in my following notifications. Even with the warning, it still shocked and confused a lot of people, though I understand your point. Here is some people pointing it out:
HELP WTF HAVE I JUST SPENT 5 HOURS DOING 😭😭 TWO BAD ENDINGS, TWO RESTARTS, AND THEN THE JUMPSCARE ENDING??!!
how many reviews so far?
girly that was such a shocker wth , i cannot fathom it, i shall drown in my slumber of sorrows. Hear thee, hear thee.
Guys can someone help im on moblie and its not letting me type my name like my keyboard isn't popping up
(SPOILERS)
(SPOILERS)
(SPOILERS)
(SPOILERS)
(SPOILERS)
!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PLS REVIVE HIM I'LL DO WHATEVER IT TKAES PLSS PLS RTAVOIVE HIM I LOVE HIM SM PLSPSLEPLSPLEA
i really liked this game it was fun
this game is gold lol I live on kick to play this game
lol
I THOUGHT THIS WAS GOING TO BE A CUTE INNOCENT GAME HELP ME
i gasped so loud at the end. i dont know if theres any diffrent endings than the one i got but i was in deep shock
that bad ending was a def a jumpscare omg T-T
how do i rate i need good ending
spoiler alert!
so i basically killed him. 😨
im not sure to what i watched my friend stream and i am terriffied of what i have witnessed i would like to say that i heavily dislike this game with all of my passion in my heart for no absloute reason.
"Omg I love him sm, if something happens to him I'm gonna cry!"
*stabs him*
"WHAT THE FLIP MANE"
GIRL WHAT???? OMG WHAT??? JUMP DUCKING SCARE LIKE OMG HE WAS JUST.. AND THE CAT WAS JUST THERE AND OMG.... I CAN'T- I WON'T GO OFF ON A NOTE LIKE THAT!! I REFUSE!!!! REFUSE I SAY!!!
So it was a lie about the third ending? what the fuck i been trying this whole time for this 3rd ending
Hi, I am a lifelong mental healther and I'd rather have a million people with no experience with suicidal ideation make a million shitty/lazy/stupid suicide games than have one person who's been there get scared away from making art about their experiences.
What an awful take. :( There are many games made by people who have actually gone through such experiences, and I've never seen them get hate.
If anyone is looking for one, I highly recommend: i won't finish this game
ETA: Now that I have a moment to sift through some past games, I'd also personally recommend The Longest Walk and Winter in June for other short experiences about the same topics (depression/suicide) and Adventures With Anxiety! for anyone struggling with or curious about anxiety disorders. All hit close to home for me.
Take care of yourselves and please make sure you're in a good headspace if you decide to read/play. 🧡
What a horrible thing to say. Mental health as is, especially depression, is already very demonized and misunderstood. People making a million bad games about negative streotypes about depression will only harm, not help and make it significally harder for them to get any sort of help. People who have these ideations and make these games about their own experiences usually do it in a respectful and carthodic way that does not harm anyone and these games barely get enough attention as is, so you pushing this mentality on other people and displaying it proudly on a creators page is actually very gross. You are pushing a very harmful viewpoint and if you cared about other peoples experiences and other fellow "mental healthers" you would not be saying this as it benefits no one but rather pushes them back into regressive and stigmatized corner. Shame on you.
bro ddlc literally did the same thing as this game yet i see no one hating on it
hmmmmmm idk no clue maybe because DDLC did it a lot better and accurately wrote Sayoris issues and struggles to be realistic instead of just shoehorning the suicide in? That’s just me tho 😂😂 you do your own thing bro! Have you ever considered that maybe execution is important and doing research on these issues before you write them is a good thing? Learn some critical thinking and understand media literacy and come back to me.
DDLC was the most I've ever been upset by a piece of media as an adult, not because the game has onscreen suicide and self-harm but because after that it goes "they're AIs of shitty moe archetypes and the only reason they're this fucked up is that Monika altered their code to make them less likable, so really who cares". Sayori and Yuri being well-written actually makes this worse, because the twist comes after they were already made relatable. It still baffles me that this game isn't universally detested by the mentally ill.
And yet, that game is meaningful to many people who've experienced serious mental illness. Because people get different things out of art, and are not all offended by the same list of writing decisions. This is a part of critical thinking and media literacy, too.
Good for you that you dislike it, I’m just saying that the difference is one is well written and the other isn’t and that is apart of the reason why people like one and detest the other. That’s also apart of media literacy. I never said you couldn’t like it or that it was an accurate representation of your issues or all our issues as being mentally ill, all I said is that because it had nuance and made the characters likable and throughly explained a lot of plot threads and did a new and interesting story it is way more meaningful and memorable in that way. I’m tired of you guys trying to write this off as art when art has meaning and research and love put into this while this did not. That is the primary difference. Your main points were still bad and this doesn’t prove or deny anything, congratulations for disliking a universally loved game, you are so original and unique.
So I'm not a real crazy person because I have different priorities about art? Very cool of you. Can't wait to tell my psychiatrist that I reliably experience emotions and want to live.
Never said you weren’t. Just said this was a shitty thing to say and if you cared about what people are saying you’d acknowledge that people have different perspectives and points then you do and claiming people don’t understand art because of messy and shitty writing and plot points and treating it like it’s high art is actually just weird. Do not mince my words, I disagree with your point but I never once claimed you weren’t actually mentally ill and trying to throw in the “I like pancakes” “so you must hate waffles” point is petty and unneeded,I never once said anything like that and you saying that shows me you have not entered the conversation with an open mind and civil intentions. If your going to result to undermining my entire point by taking things extremely out of context, I'd rather just not even bother arguing with someone like you.
edit: grammar
Hi, you absolutely did say it to them though. You said, verbatim, "You are pushing a very harmful viewpoint and if you cared about other peoples experiences and other fellow "mental healthers" you would not be saying this as it benefits no one but rather pushes them back into regressive and stigmatized corner". (You also implied that the creator of the game, which does suck, by the way, don't get me wrong!, can't possibly be mentally ill because THEY are expressing themselves in a way YOU don't like. I don't like it either and I don't know whether that person is mentally ill, but unlike you, I live in a world where I can acknowledge that it's possibly that another mentally ill person might sometimes make stupid art, because of course that can happen.)
So! Considering that original post was very clearly coming from a perspective of caring about other "mental healthers", as it is very insane to imagine that someone saying they don't want to risk accidentally censoring the art of a person who might have mental health issues would mean it for any other reason, the only reasonable assumption is that you're implying that they don't have those issues at all. Or were you trying to say something that made even less sense and was even less relevant? Either way, you've declared that anyone who doesn't have your exact perspective must not care about other people, while brutally attacking anyone who makes art you dislike. This is ridiculous, fundamentally pro-censorship, and overall it's absolutely disgusting. You were trying to be hurtful and you know you were and the least you could do is not be a coward about it, but of course that won't happen, because you don't have a meaningful stance here, and you live life with such intensive cognitive dissonance that you're able to convince yourself that wanting to CENSOR ART THAT YOU PERSONALLY FELT WASN'T VERY GOOD is actually a very good stance that makes the world better. You've convinced yourself that CENSORING PEOPLE will lead to them being somehow more free to discuss sensitive topics, and that NOT CENSORING PEOPLE will lead to them being somehow less free. A child could tell you how little sense that makes.
You haven't taken responsibility for any of the awful things you said, you claim to be defending media literacy and critical thinking even though everything about your approach does nothing but further damage and disincentivize those things, your various posts about this consist of you pretty much refuse to engage honestly with a single point being by anyone you're talking to, and you still have the gall to act like it's OTHERS who aren't approaching this debate in good faith and can't be reasonably engaged with? Yeah, no. The game being criticized sucks, but there's no question whatsoever that you are the person here who should be ashamed.
Don't worry, though, I won't try to debate you. This post really isn't even for you, because you've already made it abundantly clear that you're a dishonest, vicious, pearl-clutching reactionary who has never once been willing to actually communicate. I'm just putting it here because this whole exchange left me searingly angry and I want there to be a record of someone refusing to swallow your crap.
*the one and only edit actually
Forgot about the stupid DDLC take you had in another comment. Not here to debate that with scum like you either, but WOW it sure was gross how you responded by basically saying "lol who cares that the game I liked more actually hurt you, because I liked it" and then deliberately implied that they secretly only disliked the game because it's popular, as if it's literally impossible for someone to have a different experience than yours and anyone who did must be lying. And please don't even bother trying to explain how actually when you said that you meant something else. You meant what you said and you know it. Alright, peace. I hope your life is really, really bad and it only ever gets worse.
brooooo why you gotta dramabait on itchio for
patiently waiting for the good ending >_<
SPOILERI DEMAND A GOOD ENDING RIGHT NOW
LITTERALLY 😭😭😫
there is no good ending ?
i am going to cry :'(
THE GAME LOOKS SO CUTE AND LOVEING
sadly:( let's just hope we get one😭
we better get this to 5k ratings or now good ending ;-;
I really like the game , It's got beautiful graphics. The story is sad but I really hope I get to see a happy ending ❤️
"Beomhan wth" is all i could think of at the end 🥲
SPOILER
PLS MAKE A GOOD ENDING IM BEGGING UUUUUU
??? Why does it say your comment was posted 6 days ago, yet it's near the top?
To the point, people can write whatever they want, however they want. To a not so insigificant number of people, however, this game's use and representation of suicide, alongside the other oddities (namely the review thing), was especially nauseating to experience. I could see if there had only been one or two people in the comments claiming it wasn't written well, but people both suicidal themselves and those who have lost friends/loved ones to suicide have all largely espoused the same concerns and criticisms. Whatever her intentions, the author DID hurt people by not putting more thought, care, and even warnings into the game.
Topics like suicide, especially when the majority of your fanbase is so very obviously young, should absolutely be treated with care and respect. Mental health struggles are stigmatized and misunderstood too much as is to let writers utilize it however their awful plots please. There's not an "incorrect way to be suicidal" but the wrong application in any writing can be both incredibly insulting and upsetting to those who have actually suffered through it as well as furthering people's warped view of what they are going through.
Okay so, I had to literally physically go away and think before I came up with an answer because the leap in logic here is insane.
Yes, actually. There is right and wrong ways to potray mental illness. Shocking, I know. This comment comes off as very tone deaf for someone who seemed to struggle with ideations for a long time. I'm not saying you don't feel that way, I just find it weird that your implying we should let people demonize and streotype stuff we've been trying to get away from for a long time and its actually especially harmful and damaging for you to say that and excuse shitty writing for a game. This is like saying Split is an accurate representation of DID and yes guys! we should let a person with no experience with DID and doesn't have it demonize said illness and actually misconstrude it and use it for shock value, this isn't harmful at ALL to people with DID and letting them get help! you see the issue? Use this with any mental illness and this is actually a very harmful mentality to have. Her behavior only proves this point because all shes done with the suicide and murder endings is laugh at her audience and mock them for being unable to save him. "Better give me 5k reviews or poor, sweet Zilas is gone forever." and use suicide and murder as shock value and a thing to hold over someones head rather then to educate and show how suicide effects people which she fails at miserably. What your failing to realize is that, yes, while this may be entirely possible this happens irl, fiction does not equal reality and fiction is its entirely own thing and implying that it has to represent irl issues you experienced is harmful. Not everyone has the same experience as you and saying this is a realistic potrayal to you boogles my mind.
In conclusion, its actually a lot more harmful to spearhead the idea that mental illness can't be done wrong and let poor writing through the cracks is a very fucking awful thought process as it perpetuates the idea that we shouldn't hold writers accountable for doing poor research and let them get away with continuing to do streotypes we've been trying to get away from for years. While you may not take offense to it, other people do and we can actually differeniate fiction from reality. Not even sure why I'm arguing with a pfpless person on itch tho, you guys never have good points and are probably just Jenny on an alt and will never respond to my counterpoint. Very sad.
I suspect it's the dev just doing damage control at this point, just like removing the ability to downvote. A comment from 7 days ago, and from an account made only a day prior, just shoots to the top of the page. It even already had upvotes with it when it popped up. It's just more transparent manipulation on top of all the rest.
For what it's worth, I agree with your points. Damaging and stereotyped portrayals of mental illness are unfortunately too common in media - horror especially. Really hoped I'd never see it in Otome though...
Hope you're doing well.
I fully agree.and thank you, you have backed me up on a lot of points and stuck with me through some of these arguments so make sure to take good care of yourself as well. Very sad Jenny is deciding to go about it in this way, unfortunately.
bro i thought when he proposed to his girlfriend that it was a good ending but i was so wrong... i end up kill--- him instead the way i cried i would had preferred the sui ending😭
I just wanted to hold the cute streamer boy, this is so unfair (/j)
Hello so I read the last tweet from Jenny before writing this and since we can’t say what is true i’m writing this review with the softest tone and only talk about the game <3 have a good read !
1) The story in general
In the first place, the story feels rushed, I'm not the best writer but you can tell that we miss a lot of information for exemple starting with how fast the guy gets followers for doing almost nothing (I think maybe make the whole story a week would be better with more action) to the hanging ending . I feel like the whole story is a mix of Needy Girl Overdose ( the fact he wants 1M in a week and he is helped by his partner) and DDLC for its "disturbing" ending. And you know what it's great you take inspiration for your game but the issue is that it’s very similar so the game feel less original. I also feel like the whole game feel like a booktok comment section (probably cause I’m not target audience but I feel like that kind of way to write is gonna age very badly kinda like error 143). Also to finish this first part the relationship between the MC and the guy. The whole time it just feels like the MC controls everything about this little white hair dude it just feels like I'm playing a toxic relationship simulator (talking about the fact that we aren't guiding him for a better streamer career but we are imposing him stuff like "ban her from modding" or even when he have to apologize and the MC literally choose for him and when he say "I don't think it's a great idea" the MC doesn't listen to him and force him). Ofc the mc got some reason to be like this especially with the mod being a creep to him. To my eyes, he has 0 personality. Plus the fact that he is sexualized by everybody in the game is just so sad he kinda deserves better. :(
2)The hanging and homicide ending
So to resume this he decides to kill himself because he got bullied on the internet cause he apparently hates people with cancer (I think it’s a silly reason but someone said it’s about showing cancel culture? I think it was written in not so good way cause I personally feels like the game was making a joke). The whole reason why he did this is very silly and it explains why I think the story is rushed but you know maybe before he was mentally unstable and it was the event that finally broke him. Nope, he killed himself just like that, there is no indication that he is feeling bad, it just happened. The way she just killed him was very disturbing. Suicide is a very serious topic, normally you get signals of those things, this guy is not killing himself like that. It just feels like the ending was here to just shock people and it did, I was shocked because it happened without warning (not talking about trigger), it was so out of place. I don't really get words to describe this scene cause the picture was very graphic kinda like DDLC but when you play it you know what is going to happen here no (now yes if you read the post but it’s kinda hide). Same for the Homicide ending it kinda happened like the hanging ending out of pocket and was very graphic.
After playing for a second time normally you get an interaction with the cat (introduced at the start of the story and then forgotten) he said "yeah I can bring him back if you leave 5,000 rates on itch.io". This whole thing is just crazy to me (about how the story just out of pocket killed the character I know it’s explained by the plot but it was put in a very “awkward” way) the game ask for a good ending if you give good rates... I don’t think it's ok and I feel like the game is using his death and his suicide as a way to get reviews (btw I know he is fictional I’m more talking about the idea of his death I hope my word aren’t confuse)
Ok bye!!XX
go check twitter people are talking about the issue i can't say here
why delete my comment >:(
edit: the creator is deleting the negative comments because they don't want criticism????
made an account not to rate (i will not), but because I don't want my friends to read. Spoilers ahead obv
---
From my understanding, the biggest reason this game is getting hate, is for its "insensitive depiction of suicide", but tbh, I'm a bit confused because that's not how I saw the ending?
People keeping comparing it to DDLC and Sayori's ending (yes, I see the visual similarities), but they're completely missing the references the game tells you about. "Death Notebook", "Ryuk", "fond of apples". Ryuk is literally shown in the ending CG, so I don't know how else the game can spell it out for you.
For the benefit of those who haven't seen the anime (which I can only assume most of the people who've hated this haven't), in the show, there is a notebook where you can write a person's name and the cause of their death, and within the next 40 seconds, they will die like that. Yes, there are instances where suicide is the cause of death shown. V graphic and depressing, but story wise, makes sense.
We know from the second ending that MC wasn't just in the mood to randomly stab Zilas; that it was a sudden urge. He literally says "it's not your fault, i can explain". If we can safely conclude it was some external forces that compelled MC to, and that Zilas was destined to die one way or another, why have we all collectively just assumed he committed it out of his own volition? And if that's not the case, then there would obviously NOT be any signs to show. Because it was not suicide out of depression.
You cannot tell me how weird or dumb you think it was for Zilas to get cancelled for something he didn't mean, when you're out here doing the same (played one time, missed the hints, and decided it was okay to harass someone for sth you didn't like). I would expect some more empathy from the people who talk about mental health. (this is not a jab at anyone. some comments have been respectful, but some are just awful).
I'd like to clarify that I am not here to defend the devs. I write this (and here's the part I hope my loved ones never know), as someone who has dealt with suicide ideation for the most part of their teen and young adult years. Who still has a stack of letters tucked in the back of my cupboard, because there was one night where I was so sure it was the end. I write this as someone who still cannot trust myself with heights or high places. My mental health is something I must protect, not a random game developer. Why read the content warnings, press okay, and still complain?
The problem most people have with the game is not because of not reading the warnings or whats going to happen (which actually orginally was the case because in the first build, in which most people played, it had not contained any and instead they were hidden on the itch.io page, which is not an adequate place to put content warnings for something as sensitive as this.) but the fact of how poorly written it is and how it was done in a way that was not well researched, well thought out or well done.
Firstly, no it is implied he committed suicide because of the hate comments and harassment he was getting. If it truly didn't bother him in some way, which it seemed to, why on earth would he do it? Was him ghosting the MC and hiding himself away because it hurt and stressed him out also not of his own volition like you seem to be saying? YOU are the one who seemed to miss "hints" right in front of your nose. The thing most of us don't understand is why Jenny decided to go about it this way, if it was truly just Ryuks doing, it was not thought provoking or well done in any way, shape nor form. In fact, we still know nothing about Ryuk, the cat was not in the story besides very brief implications and thats why we are confused. Ryuk feels very out of place in the grand scheme of the story and like the horror aspect was an afterthought. Its very lazy writing in terms of horror, and slapping a "give me 5 thousand reviews to revive him" at the very end and half assly explaining plot and story beats at the very end is HORRIBLE writing. The main point of writing is showing and not telling, which this game fails miserably at, from one writer to another. We see a lot of issues with this because writing needs to be shown adequately so things can be explained and neatly wrap up plot threads, this game needed a lot more revision and time in the oven and should not have been done for a game jam where these topics need a lot of understanding and grace to be done properly. Just because stuff isn't always explained irl doesnt mean that should be an excuse for horrible writing on a game about a complex topic.
Secondly, NOBODY IS HARASSING JENNY!!!!! And if they are, its not any of us. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and just say you are making a lot of this stuff up in your comment. Nobody is attacking or harassing Jenny, we are critcizing her writing because it depicts something very sensitive and something that needs to be thoroughly researched which in this case it wasn't. I actually scrolled and did not find a single comment saying what you seem to be implying, just well rounded critcism from people who struggle with depression or have lost those they love to suicide or murder, which Jenny has not which is why people are offended and hurt by the writing and how insensitive it is to people who suffer from it and most of us went in knowing the content warnings, just expected more nuance. Also, only one person compared it to DDLC, one person and the difference is that Sayori is actually well written and Zilas isn't. Your acting as if a majority of us said these things when we didn't to prove a point, which you aren't. We are allowed to criticize and give our takes on very real world issues and stuff we suffer with on a published product. Part of being a game developer is accepting criticism and recoginizing when YOU release a product or project into the world, people are free to do what they like with it and just because the developer is a smaller one doesn't negate them from any and all criticism, what stupid reasoning. Your failing to realize the difference between harassment and criticism when most, if not all, of us want Jenny to be a better writer and still stand behind her because she has worked on amazing projects and knows how to write good and thoughtful stories, which is why most of us are disappointed in how she went about this and went about addressing it. Jenny isn't an "uwu poor vicitim" getting harassed, maybe read the reviews that seem to be 'harassment' to you and recoginize the game dev and lead writer has done problematic stuff and deserves criticism for her actions instead of writing it off as harassment.
For someone who claims to not be defending the lead writer and producer, you sure seem to be ignorant to a lot of what people are saying and ignoring most of our points for the sake of defending said writer, and making an account just to protect them tooth and nail kinda shows what side your actually on. Good grief.
Comment sections are not just for blanket outpourings of love and support for whatever the dev creates. Creatives can't adequately grow and learn without criticism. Not sure where you're getting harrassment from, but I've not seen it on this page and have read every critical review posted so far (even the ones I've had to google translate).
Also, (ignoring that the content warnings were initially hidden so the author could have their gotcha moment) I sort of mentioned this in a previous comment, but suicide in games rarely bothers me (as someone who has attempted and almost didn't survive, since we're sharing). When written well, it can even be incredibly cathartic. For example,there's an interactive fiction game on steam in which you can choose to have your MC struggle with suicidal thoughts. The difference is that the author of that game either struggled with similar thoughts themselves or actually did research, as everything came across as very realistic and relatable to me. It wasn't pulled out as some ending plot twist, but was included as something the MC grappled with alongside their myriad other struggles. The absolute best part is that it's completely optional. All that to say, suicide in media isn't a problem for me when written about knowledgeably and respectfully.
And a content warning for suicide (when one can actually find it) doesn't excuse the writer from criticism if it is written poorly.
Edit: Deferring to and agree with Miru's critique of the plot.
As a guy who's seen death note, I flipped out, extremely excited when I noticed the death note references. I thought this game would be long and interesting, and end in Ryuk somehow being involved in his death. As someone who got the yandere ending, some part of me wonders if Zilas really did have a deathnote and was using it to make us kil- him. Perhaps that's why he said that 'he can explain'. I believe there's a major connection between this game and death note, and I refuse to believe there's no explanation.